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Title:  FaT GiRL Roundtable
Date(s) of creation:  October, 1994
Creator / author / publisher:  FaT GiRL
Physical description:  Eight zine pages of a transcribed discussion between six people, accompanied by photographs of fat queers feeding each other.
Reference #:  FG1-033-040-Roundtable
Links:  [ PDF ]

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FaT GiRL Roundtable

Transcribed by Candida 
Photos by Laura Johnston 

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The idea to put Fat Girl together came about last spring, while a couple of us were just hanging out shooting the shit. It seems the best ideas are often born that way, from the inspiration of good conversation with friends. With each passing conversation we grew more and more excited. The more the idea sank in, the more we began to realize how really revolutionary it would be to publish words and images of fat dykes—true words, words that really represent who we are. So, in order to get some of those inspiring ideas onto these pages, and not limit ourselves to the written word, we decided to record a conversa­tion between members of the group who put this together, to give you a chance to hear us talk about why we’re here. Hence, the birth of the Fat Girl Roundtable. 

O: How can any of us say about what it’s like to be a fat straight woman? 

S: Well, in a way you can, because … 

B:  We used to be fat straight girls? 

[laughs]. 

S: I’ve been a fat … well, not straight girl. But trying to be. And I don’t think that everyone who sees me on the street knows I’m a dyke. 

O: I definitely think you get treated really differently in the dyke community if you’re a butch or a femme, and fat. I think I get a lot of good stuff, much more positive rein­forcement from femmes than negative stuff. 

B: I think even your shape sometimes defines whether you’re butch or femme … in how people see you visually. Even within the dyke community, dykes see “fat” first before they see “dyke.” [And they can’t tell us apart no matter how different we look.] That’s just one (of the many) reasons why we want to do FaT GiRL. And I wanted a feast of images, there just are not enough images of fat dykes. The ones that are out there are few and far between … most of them are okay … a lot of them are goddess images of fat dykes, so therefore she’s maternal or something. Like, she’s going to take care of the other dykes in the community because she’s a fat dyke. 

[Everyone laughs.] 

S: Oh, also, you’re not going to be a bottom if you’re big. 

M: And OMIGOD, you’d think the world was coming to a fucking end. He started yelling, and talking at the top of his voice … yelling obscenities. Like, “Fucking dykes! Blah blah BLAH blah BLAH,” and all the people in the restaurant ( who were mostly queer, or queer-supportive), were like, who is this jerk? This guy was insane. I just felt like he happened to be one of the people who was crazy enough to speak his mind about how much he hated us … but I feel like that energy is there all the time. 

B: He went on, saying how disgusting we were … and he was threatening how he was going to mess up her bike outside … and how could you do *those things* with each other. And it was a tiny little restaurant, and she barely bumped him, and said “Excuse me.” But there’s so much hatred. I just think when you’re a dyke, and you’re bigger. .. people notice you, and they see “fat,” and people feel it’s safe to attack you if you’re fat. Like really, there’s no good rea­son for your existence, and they can say that to you whenever they want. Growing up, everyone in my family was always on my case with, “Oh, you would be so beautiful, IF ONLY you would lose some weight.” Constantly. Whenever I talk to my mother, no matter what I say. I could say, “Oh Mom, I got a promotion!” “Oh, you got a promo­tion? Well, I hope you lose some weight, because you know, you’re not going to get another promotion.” Everything comes down to: “Are you going to starve yourself for us?” 

O: Or they would say, “If you were skinnier, you could get a nice man.” No, I want some pretty girls, though I don’t need to be skin­nier. 

S: My mother would always be angry at me for starving myself, and then telling me how horrible and disgusting fat women were. Mostly it was about her. .. we’re built almost exactly the same, but she would go off about how disgusting she was. And I stopped eat­ing. And then, “Oh, but you have to eat.” Fuck, you know? Either I’m supposed to eat or I’m not. 

C: What this brings up for me-in terms of, how is it different being fat around dykes than straight women-is being around women who talk about how much they need to lose weight. Or how awkward it is to be sitting next to it, because it feels like they’re saying that being fat is the worst thing in the world, and they’re afraid of being fat. Whether they’re fat or not. But they’re actually not nec­essarily talking about you directly at all, they’re talking about being unhappy in their body if it gets to be fat. So where do you draw the line? Or how much do you put up with having to hear about their hatred of all things FAT? Does it depend on how they word it, or what? 

S: I don’t usually say anything, because if you do, it ends up being so condescending. Like, “It’s okay for YOU. You’re … different.” 

O: I get that with my co-workers a lot. A lot of them are really small, some of them are, like, anorexic. And they’re always, “Oh my god, I can’t eat this,” or “I can’t eat that … ” And they don’t even notice me, or if they do, they say, “Oh, but you’re *differ­ent*.” 

C: “It looks so becoming on you, it’s just ME … “

O: “I can’t imagine you *any other way* … “

C: Oh, yeah. ” … And I fantasize about you naked … “

[Big laughs]

O: God, *I* wanted it.

[Max laughs]

C: So, do you find you get that less frequently with dykes, or does it feel differ­ently when a dyke does it because you think maybe she’s more aware, some­how, about “fat issues”? 

O: I even think it’s kind of crap with other dykes, even in Women’s Studies—you know, the Intro to Fem. crew—who are so in touch with their own shit and all. .. but they still do it! But they just feel bad about doing it. Or they can say something weird, and then say, “but I don’t *really* think that.” Or “I know it’s wrong to think that, but sometimes I feel that way.” I’d actually rather hear it from people who didn’t have the p.c. rap behind it.

A: I find it more offensive from dykes. Especially because I expect them to know better. If nothing else, I expect them to love them­selves a little bit more than the average bear. 

C: Why? Why? Why?

S: Because you’ve already had to learn to love yourself over things that other people don’t like about you. Theoretically. 

A: And here we are, where I grew up, it’s like we’re all supposed to be making “safe space” for ourselves, and “safe space” for each other. Great. 

S: I don’t find it as much with dykes, it’s way more subtle … I work with all straight women, eight women sitting around sewing all day, no money … we’re talking all the time. They don’t do it much, but they will-get into this thing about weight. And you never hear a bunch of dykes sitting around talking about that in that same way. They might be just as fucked up about it on the inside, but it’s not like an acceptable topic of conversation. 

A: Well, they’ll talk about how they’re going to go work out instead, or how they’re getting so fat and have to go to the gym. 

C: Yeah … but sometimes when it comes up, it doesn’t mean some­one is necessarily all that fat-negative. It’s complex … if you sud­denly gain a lot of weight and can’t move quite as well and do the same things, it’s seriously depressing. It can have real drawbacks, it doesn’t always mean they’re just “fat-negative” about everyone. I feel like some dykes are more aware of that. I don’t know. 

B: It seems like a lot of the images we see … l mean, I feel like our community is being more and more commercialized, and there’s more money coming into it. But all the image I ee of dykes … it’s an androgynous image, so therefore if it’s androgynous then they’re kinnier, because then they don’t have any curves or any shape to them. Even if they’re femme and androgynous, they’re super-thin. Like the same images you see of mainstream models, transcribed into our community. How our community is starting to sell itself is really frightening. It’s so un-diverse. There’s just mostly skinny women. Like the Girl-Spot, they have all these ads … recently, they had one that said, “Come in for our new face­lift.” They had made a change and re-done themselves, and had all this advertising about their “face-lift.” Like our bodies need to be restructured. 

C: “Come in and get your cellulite SUCKED.” 

B: It’s really alienating. 

C: At least Page Hodel’s thing … Club Q … at least they advertise some diversity, they have big girls, girls of different ethnicities … they make a point of not having many white girls in their ads. Which is refreshing. 

B: I mean, there are LOTS of fat dykes in our community! 

M: Well, you don’t see them in *Deneuve*, or *On Our Backs*, or any of the magazines … 

B: Once in a while … 

C: Well, it’s a fetish …

S: Not all the straight chubby chaser stuff is like that. I mean, a lot of it is really positive. I was impressed to see some of that which was pretty matter-of-fact. And also, it’s really interesting to see all this stuff about guys coming out of the closet about liking fat women. And those are the words that they used.

C: It’s true, though … not that I feel particularly sorry for them. But men do get a lot of shit for dating fat women.

M: Who cares? 

[lots of laughter] 

S: I kind of do, because it all affects me, in the end. The fact that even for a straight guy, someone who’s right there in the norm … that that’s so “out there” translates into more shit on the street for me, basically. 

C: Also on the net—I don’t know if any of you computer geeks have ever cruised alt.sex.fat [a computer newsgroup]. There was another “feeder” story on that one, about this guy who bought all these larger clothes for his girlfriend, and arranged for her to start a mail-order business at home … and then he started drugging her, and she gained 70 pounds, and was very depressed all the time, and dependent on him for everything. 

B: It’s all control. 

S: Well, it’s just like what I hear from these straight women at work, that their boyfriends will come down on them for eat­ing. “Oh, you’re eating *that*?” If it’s not control one way, it’s control the other way. 

A: The thing that’s always disturbed me about organizations like NAAFA [the National Association for the Advancement of Fat Acceptance], I used to go to some of their meetings … and there would be this roomful of fat women and thin men … chubby chasers, you know? And the vibe that I always got that disturbed me the most was that they really want “their women” to be desperate. Powerless and desperate. And then these guys get to be like god. Because all these women are fighting each other for these weeny men …. I was so disgusted …. [people clutch their queasy stomachs and groan] 

S: It still comes down to what men want. 

O: Yeah, I guess we all are. But that’s really weird. I’ve never had that experience at all. I’ve been really lucky to not have had that. People are weird about it and all, but my lovers seem to be really into it. “Oh, you’re so cuddly,” “Oh, you’re so cute.” That kind of little boy, chubby, cute, teddy-bearish thing. That’s the stuff I get from them. 

B: April, you were talking about cruising and stuff. I think for me, I’ve always had a really hard time with casual sex. And I think a lot of it has to do with not only dealing with my own body issues, but want­ing to not have to deal with … like, when dykes get together and are sexual together, so many issues come up. Issues galore. 

C: And you PROCESS them, too.

B: … and then you process them! I feel like other people’s body issues come up. And I don’t want to deal with other people’s fat­phobia. And sometimes you want to be sex­ual, so my own fear about people rejecting me because of being a larger femme, or a stronger femme, or not meeting other dykes who could throw me around as well as I could throw them around, has kept me from … but also, dealing with other people’s body imagery. I’ve had really small lovers, and I know I brought up stuff for them. Their own stuff about body size. And I’m committed to working stuff out with them if they’re a long-term lover-but dealing with casual sex, it’s definitely an issue. 

C: So, in terms of s/m play …. I’m wondering. For instance, April, I’ve seen you bottom at numerous play parties. And always to peo­ple who are smaller than you. Is this a huge issue for you? (So to speak!) 

A: What do you mean? 

C: Barb was just talking about how, in terms of cruising and stuff, she feels this issue come up—that it’s an issue, that she could throw these people around so much more easily. So if you’re bottoming to someone who’s … relatively puny next to you—how does that affect you as a bottom? This is kind of a different subject, hope y’all don’t mind. 

A: No, no. I’m not particularly interested in “fighting back,” and being thrown around as a bottom. So that hasn’t been much of an issue. But this one particular smaller per­son (whose name we will not mention), COULD easily throw me around if she chose to. My stuff about power issues has been more …. like, Barb, I think it’s inter­esting that people respond to you as being big and strong. Because my stuff has always been that people are surprised by how strong I am. Because I can throw around all sorts of people, and do on occasion. I’ve always been amazed, out in the straight world, that people think that fat people are weak and helpless… [S: … yeah!] 

A: … And that we’re fat because we don’t ever move! I want to say, “Okay, kids. You try walking around 300 pounds. For a cou­ple of hours. And then we’ll talk about who among the two of us isn’t very strong.” 

B: I guess I’m not just talking about know­ing people on a casual level, but this stereo­type … having had lovers much smaller than me (and maybe not even that much smaller than me), who have this idea: “You’re femme, and I’m butch, and you’re supposed to be weaker than I am.” 

O: Hey, I just wanted you to carry the bag. [Barb laughs.]

S: I’ve had that come up for me. I don’t know if it’s come up for my play partners, but it’s come up for me. It’s not that I’ve played much with fighting back particularly, although that’s one of the subjects that seems like a taboo in the leather community around here, like you’re not allowed to like that? But when I have rough­housed and wrestled, then I’ve always felt like I have to hold back. Like with my girlfriend, who is smaller than me … .l can pick her up really easily, and she can’t pick me up (I don’t think). And she used to like to play around in this one way that she ended up sup­porting most of my weight. Not picking me up, but knocking me around where she’d be holding me, and I’d have to trust her to hold me up, and I couldn’t really trust her to hold me up. She says she can …. but I’ve gained weight, and I don’t know that she can. So, a) I miss that, and b) I never felt that comfortable with it at the time, thinking “you can’t hold me, you can’t hold me … ” 

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A: That’s the stuff that I miss … is that I was involved in a Daddy/girl relationship. And I would love to be in a situation at some point in my life, where I felt like I *could* … say, sit in some­body’s lap? 

S: It would be nice to be smaller than someone. It’s not absolutely necessary or anything, but it’s nice as a bottom sometimes to feel like you’re physically smaller than your top. For me, it can be comforting. It doesn’t mean I can’t play if that’s not there, but it’s just one thing that … 

C: I definitely feel it, too. It’s only been a few times that that has happened in my life. It’s a very com­forting thing that I was totally unused to, my whole life. Putting yourself into the hands of someone bigger or stronger than you. 

A: I actually dance with my friend Laura, and we work with a lot of contact improv stuff, which has been really, really hard for me. And really, really, good for me. Because a lot about it is about giving your weight to the other person … letting Laura carry me around! Rolling over her. Which, you know, after grow­ing up fat-basically, I’ve always been super-sized-I was a size 20 when I was 14 … that’s super-sized for a kid. So I have all that stuff about, “Oh, watch out for *her*, she’ll sit on you and she’ll kill you!” So to be able to roll over someone so much thinner than me and not have her break …. I can do it easily with strangers … [laughter] 

S: But we don’t want to roll over just *anyone*, anyway … [laughter] 

A: It’s been really important to me just to be able to DO some of that. 

B: Well…it’s definitely nice to have a lover who’s about your size. 

S: My own body image stuff comes out a lot, having a lover smaller than me … it’s hard … it’s like, “Yeah yeah, easy for YOU to say.” That hateful voice, with all that bullshit … “Oh, it’s easier for you to buy clothes,” and so on. It’s not always easier for her. It’s really hard for me to hear about any of her body image stuff. I know that abstractly, I should be supportive of it, but I usually really don’t want to hear it. 

C: Or if it’s a smaller woman going on and on about how she finds big women attractive. If she’s smaller than me, I can’t really trust that she means it the way, say, even a man would! Isn’t *that* grim. But I’m always afraid that if it comes from a smaller woman, she can’t really mean it because she’s probably really fat-phobic. It’s all my issues, but it’s there.

M: What are you saying, about you believe it if a man says it? 

S: Well, if a guy goes, “Oh, yeah, I like big women and those big, juicy tits!” you *believe* him. You may not like him, but you believe him. [Barb cracks up.] 

S: When I was into guys, I never got any of that, but I read, I see porn … 

B: Well, women think they’re fat and hate their bodies, no matter how skinny they are. Men aren’t taught to hate themselves as well as women are taught to hate ourselves. So when you hear a woman say great things about your body, you’re thinking, “Oh, sure, I know you must really hate yourself, and so you must hate me, too.” 

C: Well, especially if the day before, you hear her saying, “God, look how flabby my thighs are, blah blah blah … ” If she’s talking about her own body and self-hatred, it’s hard to think, “God, I outweigh her by maybe 50 pounds, she finds me really hot.” 

S: With my girlfriend, I don’t get that. It’s the other way around. She’s one of those people who will lose weight (when she doesn’t want to), she does­n’t feel as good, she’s putting cream on her cereal and going, “I’m cold … ” 

M: Oh my god. What a concept! 

S: It is. So it’s not that she’s dieting, it’s just the way that she is. But it’s really hard to tell part of me that. 

A: What happens to me, at a certain point, when they start talking about how much they love my body, stuff like that, is I start to not believe them. Because I think they’re covering up this aversion that they have. And I have indeed had experiences where that was what was going on, which is part of the reason that I think this. 

C: You mean, they want to feel good about it, and so they’ll say it? 

A: I’ve had very brief relationships with people who have had this bizarre … fascinated/repulsed kind of thing going on. 

M: Oh, god … 

B:They’re going to work out their issues on you? 

A: Right. And then there’s also this dynamic, where the more that they say it, the more I think that’s the only thing that they’re interested in. And as soon as they get enough of big tits, or what­ever, then they’re going to go back to thin girls that they *really* like. Because they were never interested in me as a person, it was just the body. 

M: And this is someone who is seen as an “authority” within the pervert community. 

C: And this is a WOMAN. I think she identifies as a woman … she uses female pronouns outside of scene … and she probably weighs at least 180, I don’t know, I don’t really care what she weighs. I don’t get it. Do any of you come across that much, or ever, from big dykes? 

S: I haven’t. 

O: Yeah, I’ve never heard anyone specifically say … 

M: I’ve come across ignorance like that. Or people who say things to me, like, “You’re not THAT fat.” [laughs] There’s a certain level of ignorance. Not that fat? Yes, I am THAT fat. I can deal with it. I have been THAT fat all my life, okay? It is *okay*. 

S: They thought maybe if they denied it … 

B: … It would go away? 

[laughter]

M: Or just other kinds of ignorance. Other dykes even not being aware of the fact that it might be difficult for me to fit in a booth … just things like that, there’s this constant level of education I have to pro­vide. 

C: It’s true, even among fat dykes. Like, Max, I wasn’t used to hanging around peo­ple as big as you when we started going out. So it didn’t even occur to me, that booths would be a problem. Even though I used to be a lot bigger, and used to worry about chairs … like, would they collapse under­neath me. 

A: The worst experience that I’ve had so far with a lover. … we were actually very politi­cally “together,” you know, that fat politics and stuff were really there. But she had a sexual abuse history with a much larger woman when she was a child, so we never had sex. In part, because the last time that she had sex unwillingly was with someone of my size in comparison to her. .. and had been when she was raped as a child. So … what can you do with that? 

M: Wow. That’s heavy. 

A: Yeah, I didn’t even know how to touch … 

[long, distended pause , and silence]

A: Yeah, it was that kind of stopper in my life, too. 

B: It’s interesting. I don’t know if there’s a correlation, but when I am with lovers that are more my size or larger than me …. When I was younger, and did date women that were a lot slimmer than me-really small, and really androgynous … My abuse stuff really didn’t come up at all. I felt so much more physically in control of the situation in a lot of ways. I don’t know if I’ve reached a point in my life where I’m just more in tune with myself in so many ways. I don’t know if there’s a correlation, but now I’m definitely more into being lovers with women who are closer to my size. I mean, it’s nice to be able to borrow clothes …. 

[Laughter]

B: We just have more similar interests, and also I’m more attracted to them. But also, more abuse stuff has come up in my life recently, and I think that maybe I’m more ready to deal with facing people closer to my size or being able to share that physical intimacy. It’s a really different intimacy when you’re with someone who’s a lot smaller than you. Different things come up for me than when I’m dealing with a HUGE, voluptuous woman … and you have to share the bed. [Lecherous laughter.] 

C: There’s never as much bed space.

S: Well, MY skinny girlfriend takes up plenty of bedspace …. [along with] my ten-pound cat … 

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